Tackling the Questions, Finishing Up
Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:00AM 
Continuing on with my replies to the comments and questions on the fight I started.
…I could see some mental objections he could raise. Like being in Christ was for holy and blameless existence and that wouldn’t necessitate a Fall.
I suppose that objection could be raised, except that Ephesians 1 says that the plan (or the mystery of his will) didn’t only include holy and blameless existence, but “redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.” To graciously forgive our trespasses requires trespasses to forgive.
Did Satan sin when he was removed from Heaven?
In Genesis 3, Satan is tempting Eve, so he had already sinned by that time. We are also told the devil “has been sinning from the beginning.” (1 John 3:8 ESV) Some time very early in the history of creation, before the fall, Satan sinned.
Was sin created in eternity past or when Adam fell?
I don’t think sin is a created thing. John Murray says it’s the contradiction of God and that seems to be a pretty good definition to me. If that’s what it is, then sin didn’t exist in creation until Satan opposed God. Sin came into the human race when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s command concerning the tree.
Please share what you would have done differently.
I’d have stated my answer to the original question differently than I did. Not because the answer was wrong, but because it might have been easier to accept if I’d stated it differently. I think it would have been wiser to start with the reason for my answer and then give my conclusion.
So if I were given the opportunity to start the whole thing over and answer the question of why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden again, I’d start with the centrality of redemption to God’s plan for creation, and then worked back from that to God’s placement of the tree as part of that plan and the tree’s intended role in the fall of humankind.
Reader Comments (7)
Hi,
I've reading your posts on this topic. I guess I should start off by saying that I'm not a Christian. I was mulling over your posts last night and it struck me that if what you wrote is true, then the millions and millions of people created by God who are going to Hell, were really created for that purpose.
I'd never really thought about that before, and it just seemed so pointless to create so many people knowing (or if I'm seeing this correctly, actually planning) that they would go to Hell.
I can't figure how freewill comes into it all, when you say that naturally man does not choose God unless God draws man to Himself. I find that all incredibly sad.
Perhaps I'm looking at it incorrectly? Like I said, I'm not a Christian - I grew up in the Reformed Church, and although I believe there is a God, that's as much as I can truly say I believe. I often do wish that I had the faith that my sister has and reading blogs, I know that you have something that I don't. Sorry, I'm probably rambling now.
Hope that my comment isn't too silly.
Wilma
Rebecca and WIlma,
I first wrestled through the paradox of the happy fall (felix culpa) when I read George Herbert's poem "Easter Wings" several years ago. The second stanza reads, "With thee/ O let me rise/ As larks, harmoniously,/ And sing this day thy victories:/ Then shall the fall further the flight in me." When I first came across this, I struggled to affirm what Herbert was saying. It didn't seem possible that sin and the fall could be anything but a travesty.
Understanding why God put Adam and Eve in a vulnerable position and why he allowed (or even intended) sin to infect his perfect creation is not easily accomplished intellectually or emotionally. Wilma, asks a logical question. If God intended man to fall into sin from the very beginning and he only redeems his elect, does it not follow that millions of people are merely stage scenery, destined to perish as a dark backdrop for the sake of the few redeemed. Such questions are anything but silly.
I don't fully understand the mind of God in this matter, but I do take comfort from several things. There is evidence scattered throughout Scripture that God deeply grieves the loss of those he created. He does not lightly discard his creation. One of my favorite passages is Hosea chapter 11 where God describes himself as a parent holding his toddler (Ephraim-the people of Israel) by the arms and teaching him to walk. This same toddler leaves him and spurns his tenderness. God's heart is the heart of a parent broken by the rejection of a rebellious child. He did not desire destruction for us.
I also find it comforting that God so eagerly awaits our redemption. He is the father of the prodigal running full tilt to embrace his filthy, shamefaced son. He waits to wipe our tears, to wrap us in clean robes, to lay before us a feast and show us to our rooms. "He will rejoice over [us] with gladness; he will quiet [us] by his love; he will exult over [us] with loud singing" (Zephaniah 3:17, ESV). God's heart yearns for his people.
Finally, I take comfort in Christ. Scripture is strewn with the assurance that "the steadfast love of God endures forever" (1 Chronicles 16 and elsewhere), but nowhere is this seen as clearly as in the life and death and resurrection of Christ. God's love sent his son. The son endured rejection, slander, shame, beatings, and even death on a cross so that we might be saved. This is NOT a God who makes puppets and consigns them to hell for his own good pleasure.
Theologically speaking, I affirm the sovereignty of God and I believe that he has always had a good purpose even for the evil of sin and the fall of humankind. At the same time I resonnate with the struggle Wilma describes. On a grand scale, God's goodness and man's fallenness are difficult to reconcile. On a much smaller scale, the scale of my own life and experience, I can say that the fall has furthered Christ's flight in me. Knowing the depth of my own weakness and depravity reminds me of the magnificent vista of God's grace. Without sin I would not have such a palpable measure of God's purity, his love, and his determination to make me his own. For this reason, I can affirm that God's good purposes can be seen even through the evil of the fall.
Rebecca, thank you for making your case so carefully. Wilma, thank you for your honesty and transparency. Your questions made me reflect on my own certainties and ask again how it is that I know God is a good and loving God. It's always good to be spurred to do that. In the end, I'm convinced that the questions you are grappling with are better answered from within a relationship with God than from outside of his embrace. I hope that these mysteries don't stand in the way of that.
Blessings to you both,
Heather
Hello Wilma,
Thank you for your comments. I do want to respond to them because they are good questions and not silly at all. But it will take a little thought, and I have a couple of busy days coming up. (I have a bit painting project in progress.) Will you check back in a couple of days?
Hi Heather,
Thanks for your comment. You must have been responding at the same time I was.
Hi,
Rebecca - I will certainly pop in again in a few days and would love to read your thoughts. I often feel loathe to comment on Christian blogs as I aren't a Christian and it I don't want to be seen as a time waster or a stirrer.
Heather - thanks for your comment. I "get" what you are saying, but I don't too.
"There is evidence scattered throughout Scripture that God deeply grieves the loss of those he created. He does not lightly discard his creation" - it seems like most of mankind is to be discarded and it just unsetlles me that it appears that was the plan.
"the questions you are grappling with are better answered from within a relationship with God than from outside of his embrace" - I'm sure that is true. I said to my sister once (and I truly do not mean this to sound offensive - the written word is great, but I wish you could hear tone!!!!) that Christians can see these type of issues in a happy light. You may grieve for the lost but you have the grace of God and have the relationship - you have been chosen as such. The whole concept of selection/predetermination is more frustrating on the other side of the fence. I don't mean to sound rude.
Wilma
Well, I ended up having more time this evening than I expected. :)
I've reading your posts on this topic. I guess I should start off by saying that I'm not a Christian.
Thanks for reading and commenting. Your questions are good ones and these are things, you know, that even Christians struggle with.
I suppose I should start off by explaining, that as a Christian, I believe the God who is (and who has created us) has revealed himself to us in the scripture, and that I must, as his creature, submit myself to him as he discloses himself there, regardless of whether I find what he tells me about himself easy to accept or not.
I was mulling over your posts last night and it struck me that if what you wrote is true, then the millions and millions of people created by God who are going to Hell, were really created for that purpose. I'd never really thought about that before, and it just seemed so pointless to create so many people knowing (or if I'm seeing this correctly, actually planning) that they would go to Hell.
First of all, I think you are seeing things right when you use the term actually planning. For a God who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and rational, knowing what will happen and planning what will happen are the same thing, because nothing prevents him from changing any foreseen outcome if he chooses.
But in the case of people going to hell, they go there on account of their rejection of God's revelation of himself and their disobedience to him—a disobedience comes about by way of God's permission.
Secondly, as to your point that this seems pointless: As finite (and sinful) creatures trying to comprehend the workings of an infinite Creator, things may seem pointless or wrong to us that are not pointless or wrong. I’d think that we ought to expect that some of the reasons God does what he does would be beyond the grasp of our finite and sin-skewed minds.
And third—and this is the most important thing I’ll say here—out of his mercy and grace and love, God sent his son into this world to die in order to save people who willingly rejected and disobeyed him—to save all who believe in his son Jesus. Through the death of his own Son, God provided a way for anyone who believes to escape his judgment. There is a way out.
I can't figure how freewill comes into it all, when you say that naturally man does not choose God unless God draws man to Himself. I find that all incredibly sad.
What scripture says is that human beings are willing rebels opposed to God, rebels who are so hostile to him that the only way they will come to Christ, who has provided the way out of the predicament their own rebellion puts them in, is if God overcomes that rebellion and hostility.
And yes, that’s sad. It’s the bad news that provides the background for the good news of the gospel—the good news that God saves all those who entrust themselves to Christ who died for disobedient and hostile rebels.
Christians can see these type of issues in a happy light.
Yes, although, as you say, we grieve for the lost. But underneath everything, underneath all our struggles with these things, we trust that what God does is right even when we don’t understand. Even when what God brings into our lives causes us to suffer, we can trust that our suffering is bringing glory to God by making us more like him.
you have been chosen as such. The whole concept of selection/predetermination is more frustrating on the other side of the fence.
You understand, I hope, that God does not prevent you from coming to him. God has put no barriers to keep you away. If you come to him, you will find him there embracing you. If you trust him, you will find him trustworthy. And he is merciful to all who ask for his mercy. If faith seems elusive, humbly ask him to grant it to you.
Hope that my comment isn't too silly.
Nope. Thanks for commenting and asking. And I pray that you find peace—a real rest from your struggles—in Christ.
Dear Wilma,
That was not rude at all! Please feel free to speak frankly. I also "get it" and "don't get it." I can only imagine that it must be a bit like standing on a precipice looking at jagged rocks below and hearing us shout, "It's really not so bad if you just jump." Not all that helpful since it ignores a host of questions and hindrances.
I also feel unsettled, or appalled rather, at the idea of a God who discards countless millions and has always intended to do so. Rebecca is certainly better qualified to address this quandry from a theological perspective, and I will leave that to her. I was mostly trying to add personal testimony to the mix and to be transparent about my own struggle through these issues.
As I see it, the unfortunate alternative to a God who has always been completely aware of and engaged in and sovereign over the events of human history is a God who is either unconcerned or incompetent. This alternative is not consistent with Scripture, and in my opinion, is equally unsettling. Why bother with such a God? He is not worthy of my allegiance. On the other hand, trusting in a God who is completely engaged and in control means wrestling with some very messy tensions. Personally, I find resolution in looking to the character of God when I can't understand his mind or his actions.
Regarding the dilemma of feeling "un-predestined" (That may not be the right way of expressing it. I don't mean to cause offense.), I recently read a book by Marilynne Robinson that you might appreciate. Robinson is a Pulitzer Prize winning fiction author who also wrestles with some of these issues. She has written two companion novels. The first is titled "Gilead." The second is titled "Home." The plots are happening concurrently but they trace different characters. One of the central figures in "Home" is the son of a pastor who feels himself to be outside of the elect. There are no neat and tidy solutions, and the ending is rather ambiguous, but you might find that Robinson does understand what the rest of us are missing. It's just a thought.
Thanks for sticking with this discussion in spite of my clumsiness.
Heather